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#806 - 13/10/09 10:44 PM Re: Controversial? Maybe cynical... but judges, WTF!?! [Re: KA Raz]
Lumière Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/10/09
Posts: 7
Loc: Christchurch
Hmm lets not get me started on Totilas wink
Yes the horse has amazing suspension but its extended trot is horrible to watch, because it isn't thru from behind correctly and its all front end and no back end. It doesn't show any lengthening of frame... the frame actually get shorter (praise be for video wink ) and he is borderline behind the vertical with a "broken" neck the whole test and obviously behind the vertical for some of it (but that's very common at this level, the highest point is not the poll by anyone's stretch of the imagination).
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#810 - 14/10/09 09:24 AM Re: Controversial? Maybe cynical... but judges, WTF!?! [Re: Lumière]
Tuahiwi Sport Horses Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 24/09/09
Posts: 63
Loc: Christchurch
Lol Cathy - I'm sure you would have seen my comments on him on the other board - I'm actually not a huge fan either (though I think his pi/pa is amazing!) but the judges scream WOW at his movement and he is consistently scoring 10's.

Movement IS taken into account in every single mark that the judges give. If you have 2 horses (all other things 100% equal) that move differently, 1 is plainer, 1 is fantastic, the judge is going to give (or SHOULD give) one an 8, and the other a 7...
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#813 - 14/10/09 11:38 AM Re: Controversial? Maybe cynical... but judges, WTF!?! [Re: Tuahiwi Sport Horses]
Anita Offline
New Member

Registered: 05/10/09
Posts: 43
Loc: Amberley
But why do judges mark horses higher when they are all "flash" at the front and nothing happening behind?

So I would disagree if the horse with "movement" is flinging out its front legs and not using its hind. That IMO should score lower than a horse that correctly uses its hind and consequently lightens the forehand but doesn't "fling" its front legs. But they don't - judges seem to mark the front end, not the back end.

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#815 - 14/10/09 11:56 AM Re: Controversial? Maybe cynical... but judges, WTF!?! [Re: Anita]
Tuahiwi Sport Horses Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 24/09/09
Posts: 63
Loc: Christchurch
Anita, are you talking about Totilas specifically? I wasn't - I'm talking about a genuinely NICE moving horse. Totilas DOES use his hind end - just not as much as his front end - which I believe would be physically impossible!!
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#818 - 14/10/09 01:31 PM Re: Controversial? Maybe cynical... but judges, WTF!?! [Re: Tuahiwi Sport Horses]
Anita Offline
New Member

Registered: 05/10/09
Posts: 43
Loc: Amberley
Nope - wasn't talking about him specifically, just talking "generally". Its my soap box about showing, you get horses flinging their front legs, nothing behind and everyone sighs "isn't it lovely". That and the fact that the more you crank the nose into the chest the better you seem to place at shows!

I attended a dressage clinic recently where I inadvertantly ended up sitting amongst the judges, one of the demo riders had all the judges going "ooohhh" and other soppy noises. I thought I needed my glasses checked cause to me the horse was obviously being "held in" (TIGHTLY!) and looked really resistent and tense thru the neck, poll WASN'T the highest point and nothing was happening at the back end. But the judges loved it. Where's the hope for proper/classical training...???

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#822 - 14/10/09 03:13 PM Re: Controversial? Maybe cynical... but judges, WTF!?! [Re: Anita]
KA Raz Offline
Addicted Member
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Registered: 23/09/09
Posts: 608
Loc: Blenheim, NZ
yep Anita I agree. I wrote for a judge here a few years back now who said "oooooh it's so and so, she has lovely horses they always do well in the show ring, this one was ...... at ....." and hey presto a non working horse who assumed the position got very good marks.

I just couldn't believe she would actually say all that crud to someone she didn't even know writing for her to be honest! LOL
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#837 - 15/10/09 02:46 PM Re: Controversial? Maybe cynical... but judges, WTF!?! [Re: KA Raz]
Bexta Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 51
Loc: Northland Nz
oh ive had that too. they have absolutly no fear about prasing and saying equally bad things about all sorts of people. it sure does make you wunder who they think that they are.....

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#869 - 16/10/09 04:48 PM Re: Controversial? Maybe cynical... but judges, WTF!?! [Re: Tuahiwi Sport Horses]
Harley Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 16/10/09
Posts: 54
Loc: Matamata
Originally Posted By: Tuahiwi Sport Horses

It struck me that judges are not rewarding correct training for the future, rather they are rewarding the very submissive, but probably won't progress type of horses. There were many there that were either terribly on the forehand (yet obedient) who were being hugely rewarded for that fact, despite the fact that the horse can not proceed past elementary in that state of training. They were also rewarding those that were pulled in from the front (yet swinging legs prettily) but who lacked bend and suppleness through the neck/body/jaw. They also cannot progress towards the higher levels. The horses who were light in the forehand, were not rewarded with their marks, despite being the talented type who perhaps have a little shy, or broke (trot-->canter, or vice versa). These horses tended to be greener, and with mileage, will easily progress through the grades.


This has been my biggest irriation with judging. I get so annoyed at watching green horse classes and seeing the horse that is jammed up in front and so obviously not working from behind win the class because from a glance he appears to be in the correct frame, nevermind that the correct frame for a green horse/prelim test is actually a long frame as it states in the rule book, still having contact but not jammed up like its doing an advanced test (not saying advanced horses are jammed up just in a more advanced frame as they should be)

This is one of the reason I don't look at the scoreboard anymore on training days when I compete as I am usually taking a young one out for education and exposure as opposed to competition itself.

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#871 - 16/10/09 05:16 PM Re: Controversial? Maybe cynical... but judges, WTF!?! [Re: Harley]
Anita Offline
New Member

Registered: 05/10/09
Posts: 43
Loc: Amberley
Not sure if the link will work, but an awesome book is:

Twisted Truths

He outlines what he believes is wrong with modern dressage, and how judges are rewarding exactly what we are talking about (all flash in front & very resistent), not horses that are being worked correctly from behind. He also talks about horses that are broken at the 3rd vertabrae ie: the poll is not the highest point.

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#873 - 16/10/09 05:28 PM Re: Controversial? Maybe cynical... but judges, WTF!?! [Re: Anita]
KA Raz Offline
Addicted Member
***

Registered: 23/09/09
Posts: 608
Loc: Blenheim, NZ
looks interesting Anita, but at $114 it'll have to keep LOL
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