I think the biggest problem facing us is that we aren't getting new judges through, who are simply better! Getting the new judges through means that judges can be made accountable for their judging - events won't use them if they are too "off the scale" and have a bigger pool to call on.

Here's an interesting fact. EVERY single tournament I have been to (at Advanced) I have been judged for at least 1 test, but the same judge. Which means every single day I have done, she has judged me!!! Thankfully she's a good judge and we laugh about it - but just goes to show, Canterbury obviously doesn't have many Advanced and above judges!

Some of the ones around here are getting on, and I'm not saying that they don't know anything (as many of them do) but many of them are not keeping up with their training, and many are pretty hard judges. We need to increase our judges pool, and as someone has pointed out - there is very little incentive for people to become judges. They get paid - yes, but its a pittance, and when you work full time, who wants to judge 1.2 from 8.30am --> 2.30pm on a Sunday for $40!!! And then you get people like me getting pissy that our judges aren't good enough
I believe it takes a certain person to be a judge - and yet the new people that I'm seeing judging are NOT that certain type of person - they are more the.... erm.... power tripping sort??? (Not all for sure, but many!)

Of the judges that I wrote for on Sunday, 1 was unaccredited, and I could NOT see what she could see! She had recently been to a course and was treating everything said at the course as being gospel. I'm sorry, but CORRECT dressage does not mean the behind the vertical is ok!

There was again a case of an on the forehand horse (and I only wrote that comment on the sheet ONCE) that was obedient, but not the best moving horse, beating the far better moving horse that wasn't quite as established ie: 2 transitions weren't polished, horse lifted his head through them, yet did the job very nicely, being beaten by something that simply won't go any further.

Not to mention the horse that can't move beating the horse that can (all other things being equal!).

Right, time to stop ranting and let others comment!

What is the situation like in the North Island? Do they have the same issues or is there a much bigger pool of judges up there? I would be interested to know if it is an NZ wide problem or a result of much smaller dressage numbers down here.
And to put it the other way round - how many people actually want to take the time to train their horse correctly? Are people going for the quick fix that gives them a ribbon? (which is also what judges seem to be rewarding).

am deff not going for the quick fix, here, way up here in Northland, i cant realy say that we have a huge 'pool' of judges up here. so id say that it is fairly nz wide.... im off down to jody hartstone's next week. so im no way in hell for the quick fix..... is very interesting to see how many people do auctually go for the quick fix. and as i have a 5yr old, getting this rite is more important than the quick fix!!

I wonder if judges get so used to seeing horses going along on the forehand that it becomes "normal" for them, and they use that as some sort of benchmark? Then when they get a lovely relaxed horse that is using its backside it kind of looks "different" compared to what they are used to seeing? Just an idea.
It's also worrying what you see happening overseas, like rollkur, and then people think they have to do that too if they want to get placed.
I'm not into the quick fix either, but it is really hard slog sometimes (particularly when you are green/inexperienced and so is your horse!) I can see how tempting it can be to hang on to the horse's face and fake it at the lower levels. When you read some of those letters in the H&P it seems ribbons are all alot of people care about

"There was again a case of an on the forehand horse (and I only wrote that comment on the sheet ONCE) that was obedient, but not the best moving horse, beating the far better moving horse that wasn't quite as established ie: 2 transitions weren't polished, horse lifted his head through them, yet did the job very nicely, being beaten by something that simply won't go any further.

Not to mention the horse that can't move beating the horse that can (all other things being equal!)"

I think therein may lie part of the problem tho, judges looking at different things...

I don't think the way a horse "moves" and whether one won't get any higher should have bearing on the test as a whole. Just because a horse has nice paces, if the training isn't there it shouldn't be scored on "potential" (and a lot of judges DO!) Admittedly you're example BOTH horses were incorrect, one on the forehand and one lacking submission/training in transitions, so it comes down to the rest of the movement and test.

Anita they know when horses are on the forehand, but often won't bother mentioning it at pre-lim as they don't expect them to be OFF the forehand. I get it mentioned at level 3, in the canter and my rising medium trots, so they can see it when it's there, but it was never commented on at lower levels as I guess in the training level for each test, being light in front comes after having a long and low frame etc (or can for a lot of training regimes) so it's not picked up until required. That's my take on it anyway!

I know of horses who are good looking or imported or the right breeding that technically are not as good as a plainer looking horse but will kick the plain horses butt in points even tho technically the plainer horse is doing things more 'correctly'.

and yes the judges gene pool is small and yes they are retiring (we just had one retire up here and is shifting as well) but I do disagree that judges should need to be able to ride a movement or level to judge it. I think a lot of sideline mums who have NEVER ridden could probably judge our lower levels as well as or better than some existing judges.

We can agree to disagree then as dressage IMO IS about movement and talent (as well as training). All we have to do is look at Totilas. Movement DOES play an essential part. I also think that correct training (ie a horse who is off the forehand) needs to be rewarded far more than a horse who is obedient. The talented horses all have their downfalls - in my horses case, lack of BRAINS! So yes, the obedient horses will get better marks for submission, but shouldn't be getting 8's for work that is on the forehand and pulled in from the front!!!

I also think that at Prelim level we do need to mention a horse being on the forehand - otherwise riders will simply continue to make the same mistakes. There is a huge difference IMO between long and low, and on the forehand.

I think that perhaps sideline mothers are more qualified to judge than most of our current judges (admittedly my mother rode to Medium) as they attend their childs regular lessons on the whole. But no, I think if you are going to judge Medium or above, you should have burluddy well ridden a horse in your life and have a pretty good idea what's going on! I don't think that somebody who has never ridden a horse can be in the position to tell me how to ride mine! Simply going to judges clinics is not enough IMO. The last clinician here said that a horse being BTV and croup high is fine - WTF?!?!

well Anky's coach isn't a dressage rider and look what he's helped produce

I don't think you need to ride dressage to see what a horse is doing right or wrong... most of our GP riders couldn't judge a test to save themselves if how they're trained their own horses is anything to go by!

Ummm... sorry KA - but Sjef has trained multiple horses through to GP and trained under Nuno Olivera to start with

The Horse Magazine Article

Yes, SOME of our GP riders might not be able to judge a test, but at least they have some credibility...

And by the way, amazing that we aren't the only ones talking about this! At the end of the article - which is highly relevant to what we are talking about!!!!!

Sjef on judges:
"The has been a lot of thinking about the system but what I think we need is quality judging. There are a lot of good judges, but there are also a lot of bad judges - just like riders, and just like trainers. Everyone can get a lot better with good education. Also there should be the possibility that if a judge does a bad job at a couple of important shows in a row, that they tell him, 'okay this has been enough for a while, stay home for a year, get some lessons, somebody needs to help you, then we take you back again'. There are not enough opportunities to do that. The most benefit can come from getting all the judges on a higher level. There are some judges of a very high standard, and they are doing a good job, but the problem exists because of a number of judges who are not on the same level as the other guys."

that's a good article thanks Kerry. I thought he was an eventer rather than a dressage rider...

So I need to do more canter work on Smokey now LOL.

very good article... also need to do more canter work...

Thanks for that