I'm not usually one to start throwing stones in glass houses, but after reading Bill Noble's article in the H&P I think it is time for a healthy discussion. By healthy discussion - it will probably end in a rant

The only regrettable thing is that there aren't too many dressage fanatics on this board (like myself) but feel free to pipe up with your thoughts.

I have returned from a two day competition. A fairly big one. Challenge classes, YDH qualifiers etc. The judging was so skewed and bizarre I know I wasn't the only one surprised/concerned for our judging future. I took two horses, they are chalk and cheese next to each other. Both were in the same classes. I wasn't particularly effected by the judging, and I realise it is subjective, but woowee, there were some doozies of errors made by the judges across all levels.

It struck me that judges are not rewarding correct training for the future, rather they are rewarding the very submissive, but probably won't progress type of horses. There were many there that were either terribly on the forehand (yet obedient) who were being hugely rewarded for that fact, despite the fact that the horse can not proceed past elementary in that state of training. They were also rewarding those that were pulled in from the front (yet swinging legs prettily) but who lacked bend and suppleness through the neck/body/jaw. They also cannot progress towards the higher levels. The horses who were light in the forehand, were not rewarded with their marks, despite being the talented type who perhaps have a little shy, or broke (trot-->canter, or vice versa). These horses tended to be greener, and with mileage, will easily progress through the grades.

I felt particularly sorry for the competitor who received 54% from one judge, and 65% from another - what were the judges doing???? Watching different tests/riders!?!?! This happened quite a lot throughout the weekend. What do we do? What can we do?

Don't get me started on musical freestyles. In order to judge these they need to be paying attention. In my case, I had one horse do a very hard technical test at Novice which had 10m circles, leg yield, lengthen across the diagonal to a change of lead, 2 canter lengthens, 2 trot lengthens etc etc, as opposed to my other horse whose hardest movement was a 3 loop serpentine, yet the horse with the easiest test got the higher technical mark??? WTF?!

Probably the hardest thing that I am trying to swallow is having judges pass comment on the horses/riders, who have NEVER even ridden a burluddy horse. I'm sorry, but reading a book, and watching a seminar doesn't make you an expert on contact/feel/tension etc.

Do we need to implement a rule (that was bandied around a few years ago) that judges can only judge one level higher than what they have ridden. ie: you have to have ridden advanced in order to judge GP. Or something similar? We need to have some form of accountability/control over these judges, because if we don't, we will end up with riders resenting judges, and then not competing, furthering our already declining numbers....

I'm waiting with baited breath to see what the fall out from this last show will be...

hmm, i must say that I have wondered myself sometimes with the judging. I'm not a dressage fanatic by any means and prefer to breed horses than compete them! I went to a dressage forum that Waitemata Dressage group put on a few months ago. 2 top nz judges were there - They explained that it may look like some horses are being rewarded for misbehaviour/mistakes but really, it's because some horses have a higher buffer of points to start with (as in paces/impulsion X 2) I've seen horses at the lower levels misbehave badly, as in rear and back, they would've got really low marks for that movement, but still ended up placing.

it sure does make you wounder when the scores that the judges give out there are so different from one another, espech if they have those guidelines there to what they should be looking for.

Another non dressage fantic (prefer to jump) but dabble badly in dressage from time to time

I have to admit ive wondered on some judges too.... and Ive written for a few that Ive been like hmmmm....

As long as their judging is consistant with the entire class I suppose.....

Like the thought of having to have ridden at AT LEAST the level below or higher.... perhpas scoring a particular percentage!

was it Nelson Kerry???

My coach went to Nelson for the weekend and she ranted and raved about the skewed judging too!

someone who did 3 course errors but the judges didn't mark down the 3 because she'd had a concussion (a while ago!) and it affected her memory WTF?!

a rider winning a level 3 test doing rising trot the whole time etc...

Must say I'm rather pleased I didn't waste my money and go over!

No KA, not Nelson, much further south.

3 course errors = elimination, plain and simple.

Rising trot the whole way through an elementary test = elimination, plain and simple (unless dispensation was granted for that rider), however, I tried dispensation for a broken tail bone and got told it was nigh on impossible.

I just don't know what we can do about this judging!!! I haven't struck it this badly before, but lord knows there are OBVIOUSLY some problems, and these problems obviously need sorting!

yep and obviously it's not a one off thing at one show since it was both south and up here!

Diane said perhaps they got a rark up at the forum and have gone a bit haywire LOL

is there somewhere that holds judges accountable? ie their governing body or is that all part and parcel of NZEF? Surely there is someone you can write to and voice displeasure with examples etc to at least bring it to the attention of the powers to be so they can perhaps memo judges etc?

Maybe... but I don't want to be the one rattling the dags. I don't care what people say, it comes back on you no matter what! There are only 6 judges in Canty that can judge advanced - when I ride before them every week, I don't want them thinking about anything other than what they see before them....

On the plus side, Soo Wells (rules officer) was there, and was also mentioning the disparities in scoring, so hopefully she will raise it with someone...

ah well therein lies the problem....

everyone wants to bitch about it but not actually do anything

same all round the world in every sport.... you could always shift to Cambridge and get a fresh start

You weren't the only one coming back from there thinking WTF? Talked to someone else who competed at Winchester at the weekend and she made exactly the same comment, right down to the "held in, on forehand, submissive but will never advance were being placed waaayyy above the moving freely slightly green ones..."
Seems to be a big difference between how we are told to train and how the judges score?

That's why I don't do dressage, it's so inconsistent. I would cry. Haha.

I often wonder if judges have any idea at all what they should be looking for, or if they have any idea about how the training should progress in a horse.... or for that matter if they have read the guidelines at the start of each level. I also find it interesting that some horses get the marks they do. Actually talking to someone about Dressage she said that very few of the horses that do well at novice/Elementary/ Medium rarely go on to the higher levels... because they lack the ability.

Bill Noble said the same in an article I read on Horsetalk. He said the top Dressage horses had too much spunk to do any good in the lower levels... I console myself with that thought as I get crap marks in the lower levels hehehe

soooooo.... i hear they've been controversial again down in Canterbury???!

Not sure what happened but one of my Judges in 2.4 for movements 10 & 15 obviously hasn't read the test... it says at H/K half circle 10m to G/D returning to the track BEFORE K/H and I got for both - Hit track too early... ya show me where it says Before K/H but after E Hmmm maybe I should write to the judges convener regarding Judges having at least some knowledge of what the test says Yep i got a crappy mark but it was somewhat expected because the horse isn't yet properly balanced, and its not sour grapes.

good idea! bringing it to the judges attention I mean! Otherwise it'll just keep happening over and over... was there only one judge for it?

k-ouch! at least you would think that they would have at least read the test and know what the movements are!! havent had anything quite that bad in my few years of doing dressage...... i think it is a good idea to write in, itd bring it to their attention!!

I think the judges need to be held accountable. They get paid for their services, they need to do the job properly, if they don't and they get away with it it won't be long before it as a sport is ruined for a lot more than 2 or 3 people...

as prevoulsy stated by someone here, itll drive away the so badly needed numbers for the sport!! is very sad to see that not many people do not compete because of how unpredicatable the judges can be!

I think the biggest problem facing us is that we aren't getting new judges through, who are simply better! Getting the new judges through means that judges can be made accountable for their judging - events won't use them if they are too "off the scale" and have a bigger pool to call on.

Here's an interesting fact. EVERY single tournament I have been to (at Advanced) I have been judged for at least 1 test, but the same judge. Which means every single day I have done, she has judged me!!! Thankfully she's a good judge and we laugh about it - but just goes to show, Canterbury obviously doesn't have many Advanced and above judges!

Some of the ones around here are getting on, and I'm not saying that they don't know anything (as many of them do) but many of them are not keeping up with their training, and many are pretty hard judges. We need to increase our judges pool, and as someone has pointed out - there is very little incentive for people to become judges. They get paid - yes, but its a pittance, and when you work full time, who wants to judge 1.2 from 8.30am --> 2.30pm on a Sunday for $40!!! And then you get people like me getting pissy that our judges aren't good enough
I believe it takes a certain person to be a judge - and yet the new people that I'm seeing judging are NOT that certain type of person - they are more the.... erm.... power tripping sort??? (Not all for sure, but many!)

Of the judges that I wrote for on Sunday, 1 was unaccredited, and I could NOT see what she could see! She had recently been to a course and was treating everything said at the course as being gospel. I'm sorry, but CORRECT dressage does not mean the behind the vertical is ok!

There was again a case of an on the forehand horse (and I only wrote that comment on the sheet ONCE) that was obedient, but not the best moving horse, beating the far better moving horse that wasn't quite as established ie: 2 transitions weren't polished, horse lifted his head through them, yet did the job very nicely, being beaten by something that simply won't go any further.

Not to mention the horse that can't move beating the horse that can (all other things being equal!).

Right, time to stop ranting and let others comment!

What is the situation like in the North Island? Do they have the same issues or is there a much bigger pool of judges up there? I would be interested to know if it is an NZ wide problem or a result of much smaller dressage numbers down here.
And to put it the other way round - how many people actually want to take the time to train their horse correctly? Are people going for the quick fix that gives them a ribbon? (which is also what judges seem to be rewarding).

am deff not going for the quick fix, here, way up here in Northland, i cant realy say that we have a huge 'pool' of judges up here. so id say that it is fairly nz wide.... im off down to jody hartstone's next week. so im no way in hell for the quick fix..... is very interesting to see how many people do auctually go for the quick fix. and as i have a 5yr old, getting this rite is more important than the quick fix!!

I wonder if judges get so used to seeing horses going along on the forehand that it becomes "normal" for them, and they use that as some sort of benchmark? Then when they get a lovely relaxed horse that is using its backside it kind of looks "different" compared to what they are used to seeing? Just an idea.
It's also worrying what you see happening overseas, like rollkur, and then people think they have to do that too if they want to get placed.
I'm not into the quick fix either, but it is really hard slog sometimes (particularly when you are green/inexperienced and so is your horse!) I can see how tempting it can be to hang on to the horse's face and fake it at the lower levels. When you read some of those letters in the H&P it seems ribbons are all alot of people care about

"There was again a case of an on the forehand horse (and I only wrote that comment on the sheet ONCE) that was obedient, but not the best moving horse, beating the far better moving horse that wasn't quite as established ie: 2 transitions weren't polished, horse lifted his head through them, yet did the job very nicely, being beaten by something that simply won't go any further.

Not to mention the horse that can't move beating the horse that can (all other things being equal!)"

I think therein may lie part of the problem tho, judges looking at different things...

I don't think the way a horse "moves" and whether one won't get any higher should have bearing on the test as a whole. Just because a horse has nice paces, if the training isn't there it shouldn't be scored on "potential" (and a lot of judges DO!) Admittedly you're example BOTH horses were incorrect, one on the forehand and one lacking submission/training in transitions, so it comes down to the rest of the movement and test.

Anita they know when horses are on the forehand, but often won't bother mentioning it at pre-lim as they don't expect them to be OFF the forehand. I get it mentioned at level 3, in the canter and my rising medium trots, so they can see it when it's there, but it was never commented on at lower levels as I guess in the training level for each test, being light in front comes after having a long and low frame etc (or can for a lot of training regimes) so it's not picked up until required. That's my take on it anyway!

I know of horses who are good looking or imported or the right breeding that technically are not as good as a plainer looking horse but will kick the plain horses butt in points even tho technically the plainer horse is doing things more 'correctly'.

and yes the judges gene pool is small and yes they are retiring (we just had one retire up here and is shifting as well) but I do disagree that judges should need to be able to ride a movement or level to judge it. I think a lot of sideline mums who have NEVER ridden could probably judge our lower levels as well as or better than some existing judges.

We can agree to disagree then as dressage IMO IS about movement and talent (as well as training). All we have to do is look at Totilas. Movement DOES play an essential part. I also think that correct training (ie a horse who is off the forehand) needs to be rewarded far more than a horse who is obedient. The talented horses all have their downfalls - in my horses case, lack of BRAINS! So yes, the obedient horses will get better marks for submission, but shouldn't be getting 8's for work that is on the forehand and pulled in from the front!!!

I also think that at Prelim level we do need to mention a horse being on the forehand - otherwise riders will simply continue to make the same mistakes. There is a huge difference IMO between long and low, and on the forehand.

I think that perhaps sideline mothers are more qualified to judge than most of our current judges (admittedly my mother rode to Medium) as they attend their childs regular lessons on the whole. But no, I think if you are going to judge Medium or above, you should have burluddy well ridden a horse in your life and have a pretty good idea what's going on! I don't think that somebody who has never ridden a horse can be in the position to tell me how to ride mine! Simply going to judges clinics is not enough IMO. The last clinician here said that a horse being BTV and croup high is fine - WTF?!?!

well Anky's coach isn't a dressage rider and look what he's helped produce

I don't think you need to ride dressage to see what a horse is doing right or wrong... most of our GP riders couldn't judge a test to save themselves if how they're trained their own horses is anything to go by!

Ummm... sorry KA - but Sjef has trained multiple horses through to GP and trained under Nuno Olivera to start with

The Horse Magazine Article

Yes, SOME of our GP riders might not be able to judge a test, but at least they have some credibility...

And by the way, amazing that we aren't the only ones talking about this! At the end of the article - which is highly relevant to what we are talking about!!!!!

Sjef on judges:
"The has been a lot of thinking about the system but what I think we need is quality judging. There are a lot of good judges, but there are also a lot of bad judges - just like riders, and just like trainers. Everyone can get a lot better with good education. Also there should be the possibility that if a judge does a bad job at a couple of important shows in a row, that they tell him, 'okay this has been enough for a while, stay home for a year, get some lessons, somebody needs to help you, then we take you back again'. There are not enough opportunities to do that. The most benefit can come from getting all the judges on a higher level. There are some judges of a very high standard, and they are doing a good job, but the problem exists because of a number of judges who are not on the same level as the other guys."

that's a good article thanks Kerry. I thought he was an eventer rather than a dressage rider...

So I need to do more canter work on Smokey now LOL.

very good article... also need to do more canter work...

Thanks for that

Hmm lets not get me started on Totilas
Yes the horse has amazing suspension but its extended trot is horrible to watch, because it isn't thru from behind correctly and its all front end and no back end. It doesn't show any lengthening of frame... the frame actually get shorter (praise be for video ) and he is borderline behind the vertical with a "broken" neck the whole test and obviously behind the vertical for some of it (but that's very common at this level, the highest point is not the poll by anyone's stretch of the imagination).

Lol Cathy - I'm sure you would have seen my comments on him on the other board - I'm actually not a huge fan either (though I think his pi/pa is amazing!) but the judges scream WOW at his movement and he is consistently scoring 10's.

Movement IS taken into account in every single mark that the judges give. If you have 2 horses (all other things 100% equal) that move differently, 1 is plainer, 1 is fantastic, the judge is going to give (or SHOULD give) one an 8, and the other a 7...

But why do judges mark horses higher when they are all "flash" at the front and nothing happening behind?

So I would disagree if the horse with "movement" is flinging out its front legs and not using its hind. That IMO should score lower than a horse that correctly uses its hind and consequently lightens the forehand but doesn't "fling" its front legs. But they don't - judges seem to mark the front end, not the back end.

Anita, are you talking about Totilas specifically? I wasn't - I'm talking about a genuinely NICE moving horse. Totilas DOES use his hind end - just not as much as his front end - which I believe would be physically impossible!!

Nope - wasn't talking about him specifically, just talking "generally". Its my soap box about showing, you get horses flinging their front legs, nothing behind and everyone sighs "isn't it lovely". That and the fact that the more you crank the nose into the chest the better you seem to place at shows!

I attended a dressage clinic recently where I inadvertantly ended up sitting amongst the judges, one of the demo riders had all the judges going "ooohhh" and other soppy noises. I thought I needed my glasses checked cause to me the horse was obviously being "held in" (TIGHTLY!) and looked really resistent and tense thru the neck, poll WASN'T the highest point and nothing was happening at the back end. But the judges loved it. Where's the hope for proper/classical training...???

yep Anita I agree. I wrote for a judge here a few years back now who said "oooooh it's so and so, she has lovely horses they always do well in the show ring, this one was ...... at ....." and hey presto a non working horse who assumed the position got very good marks.

I just couldn't believe she would actually say all that crud to someone she didn't even know writing for her to be honest! LOL

oh ive had that too. they have absolutly no fear about prasing and saying equally bad things about all sorts of people. it sure does make you wunder who they think that they are.....

This has been my biggest irriation with judging. I get so annoyed at watching green horse classes and seeing the horse that is jammed up in front and so obviously not working from behind win the class because from a glance he appears to be in the correct frame, nevermind that the correct frame for a green horse/prelim test is actually a long frame as it states in the rule book, still having contact but not jammed up like its doing an advanced test (not saying advanced horses are jammed up just in a more advanced frame as they should be)

This is one of the reason I don't look at the scoreboard anymore on training days when I compete as I am usually taking a young one out for education and exposure as opposed to competition itself.

Not sure if the link will work, but an awesome book is:

Twisted Truths

He outlines what he believes is wrong with modern dressage, and how judges are rewarding exactly what we are talking about (all flash in front & very resistent), not horses that are being worked correctly from behind. He also talks about horses that are broken at the 3rd vertabrae ie: the poll is not the highest point.

looks interesting Anita, but at $114 it'll have to keep LOL

I got it as a pressie

lucky ducky.... I'll think what can be displaced from my Xmas wishlist for it LOL

I'll have a flick thru and see if I can find a good exerpt to scan to share.
He also makes the point of how "money driven" the dressage market is in Europe. If you think about all the people who earn their incomes thru breeding or training horses you want good results quickly. So there is less inclination to take a slower, more classical approach to training because it doesn't give you the same financial return. Bit sad really, and probably means what is happening will just keep on happening because there is no financial incentive to change. On UDBB there is a thread about a trainer now using ropes & pulleys to make a dressage horse lift its legs higher!

Had enough of dressage myself and have decided to go showjumping. You either go clear or not plain and simple!!!

yeah but.....

you need bigger balls for show jumping!!!

LOL

not only that but dressage is the foundation for most horse sports the better your dressage usually the better your jumping as in control and response.

I'm a showjumper and yes, our flat work training is dressage, but buggered if I'll go compete in dressage! I'm with Janine, jumping is a lot more clear cut. Just wish you had your time for jumping like you do dressage, that's awesome!!!

sj is wayyy to scarry! *runs and hides*

I totally agree Rachael, the biggest downfall with dressage is that it is subjective which is why I don't look at the scoreboard anymore, your score and ridability changes from test to test. At least with jumping you can be ugly but effective and being effective is all that matters!

unless you're doing Show Hunter!!! Dressage with speed bumps! LOL

LOL

My trainer told me to pick a judge that scores me regularly on my circuit and follow their results only - a far more consistent commentary for my training. Has taken a heap of pressure off.

Hey that's a great idea from FollyFoot NZ!

yeah, it's easy to do here too, cause we have the same judges almost year round (not that we have a heap of comps) and I must say in our case the comments are always the same so I guess I'd better start working on them LOL

Sorry to bring this up again - Champs was last weekend. One rider placed 1st with one judge, and 2nd last with the other.... erm.... obviously things aren't improving...

course not, cause no bugger would have said anything earlier so the judges just keep going like they were

You guy's do have an interesting judging system, really *scratch my head*