well I must confess while on facebook to being roped into a discussion about rollkur which I've never even looked into so only know that within American circles in particular it's a highly charged emotive topic....

Really not sure why!

Have seen some hideous you-tube clips of horses being abused with training gadgets, and yet other riders use the gadgets as they should be used and all is good, a valuable training aid in the right hands....

So WHY is rollkur so evil??? Hyperflexion is even used in the gyms by people but if done RIGHT it is a valuable tool for catching those muscles missed by other exercises...

Have seen the you-tube clip of Patrik whatshisface and the blue tongue on his horse (likely caused by the tongue getting caught between the 2 bits NOT by the rollkur itself) and agree, the rollkur caught in that video clip is NOT being used in a productive way (90 mins of anything non stop is not beneficial) and have seen some clips of Anky using it much less graphically for for short bursts, which would look to be that it is being used as a variation to get the horse to respond to something or in a particular way and then released when that is obtained...

Like I said, first time today I've actually looked at it, let alone into it, so feel free to educate me...

(emotive browbeating is not and never will be educating )

OMG dont get me started on the blue tongue video!!!

I dont know enough on how there anatomy works to be honest but it sure as heck doesnt look comfy - I wouldnt want to run around with my chin on my chest - its not natural - they dont run around like that in the wild (Spose that bring up the debate that they dont run round with people on their back either)

Hmm not a strong arguement...

be interesting to hear what others say on this

doesn't look comfy but they are incredibly flexible, look at where they can reach to scratch and play LOL.

Whether that flexibility should be "exploited" to 90 mins of full on work is not really the issue unless ALL rollkur users ride like Mr Patrik....

But I noticed while watching some things on you-tube some of the very highly emotive comments on riders using it, and "these poor horses have no dignity" and blah blah blah, and am wondering how much of the anti rollkur sentiment is actually valid and how much is a bandwagon people have jumped on without actually knowing all the facts about it but rather they may have simply seen one bad example of it being used (like Mr blue tongue himself LOL)

Yeah I reckon the same - re the bandwagon thing - the blue tongue annoyed me - not for the rollkur but more because they didnt get off the horse and check it out OMG

he stayed on the horse and sorted it tho... I'm sure it wasn't just a poke back in or it would have come out again, so he must have sorted it adequately

(certainly not a pretty look seeing that flopping towards you zoomed in LOL)

From what I have read - biomechanically it puts the ligaments in the upper part of the neck under extreme pressure which can result in tearing of the fibres and inflammation.
Overbending also obviously affects the horses field of vision, so that it virtually can only see where its feet are going, it completely loses its binocular vision - which is pretty freaky for a prey animal!

And it is also contrary to classical dressage, where the poll should be the highest point of the curve in the neck. Which is why a lot of horses are overbent and said to be "broken" at the third vertabrae.

And forgot to say, overbending also affects the horse in other ways. Its to do with how all the muscles and ligaments are attached and how the interact. When a horse is overbent the muscles either side of the neck are contracted which blocks the movement of the shoulders, which restricts lateral flexion.
It also means the ilio-spinal muscles are not being used (the ones that run along the top of the spine), which means it affects the horses stride. It no longer uses its back effectively and the motor at the back doesn't get engaged.

yes BUT, they do some TRAINING like this but of course also work in "competition" frame. Anky talks about her use of it here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svOBsSdjUvU

I know she will always make it sound good, but it made a fair bit of sense too... can't say her boys look overbent in their tests

now this one for example.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UwqyMCr_7c&NR=1&feature=fvwp gives you how to recognise if a horse is trained in "rollkur" and states very common 'mistakes' seen in many many horses doing piaffe and passage, and states "excess foaming" is one way to tell... WTF?! I can give you at least 4 horses that would fit any of those things (and some ALL of those) and I KNOW they don't train rollkur!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8D7q4UWNIU&NR=1 shows a heap of WESTERN riders and claims they are training "rollkur" it also shows a fair few horses that simply look to be slightly behind the vertical...

I always say stats can be made to say anything, and you simply can't watch some of the crap they have up about it and make an informed decision about it.

no fair! I am on dial up and can't watch any of those clips. You'll have to talk me thru them... lol

I say make your own mind up To me the big issue is that it is all about the front end (without going into the biomechanical arguments), and seems to be just cranking the front end in!

You are suppose to be riding the back end - get the horse using his haunches, flexing his back legs which consequently raises the wither, lightens the forehand and puts the neck in the right position. Simple. Just wish I could do it

aaaw sorry chick, they are just one sided propaganda which is a pet hate of mine, showing only one side to an argument...

I don't see any reason to train that way, but I don't see why people are SO anti it... seems to me people have taken a "hate the way THAT person rides THAT horse" and turned it into a blanket hate of rollkur, many of the reasons I'm seeing on you-tube just aren't really valid.

Anky talks about it as a flexion tool, to be used to work muscles that aren't worked in other positions, she never says it is a way to work a horse full stop or that "rollkur" is the way you RIDE, just that as part of the variation she uses on her horses, rollkur is in there, and that seems valid to me. Picture in a gym doing a bicep workout... is it working the legs? No, but we know that, so we work the legs later right? Rollkur she is using for a specific purpose, she works on the rest of the framework using other tools.

As a training method being used, it is being used on some very nice horses who work very correctly from behind within the dressage arena, so something must be being done right by quite a few people surely?

But those muscles that they are working are not the ones which are used for correct dressage... If I ride my horse round in a stargazing position to work the muscles under his neck... what is the point??? It aint correct and it isnt good for the horse... same for rollkur. Just because it has a range of motion does not mean we want to train it.
One of the other problems with Rollkur is that it restricts breathing... but then so does sticking a bit in your horses gob

If they wanted to remove rollkur as a training aid the dressage judges need to come down hard on horses who are behind the bit or have "broken" necks in a test, and that would be the majority of the top and superstar level horses... but that isnt going to happen when they can give Totilas a 90% score while it can't extend and is consistently broken thru axis/3rd Vertbrae.

I quite like this site for explainations
http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/behind_the_vertical.php

it would also rule out the majority of low level horses who are not correctly on the bit, but you can't claim they train rollkur. It made me laugh to see one persons commment on a youtube clip, "being behind the vertical is not natural, being on the bit with the poll as the highest point IS natural" excuse me???? really, lets be honest, just how many horses in a natural state prace around "on the bit"????

Dressage is NOT natural for a horse no matter how much we would like to convince ourselves and others and if we are asking something to do something that it would hardly ever do without our interference then we need to make sure it is an athlete who can cope with what we're asking... surely that means we would ensure EVERY muscle is at it's 'peak' that EVERY part of the horse is flexible, not just the ones we will use in a 'test'???

to me the reasons (so far) given as to WHY they use it seem completely valid to me, to me it's like a weight lifter actually taking the time to stretch after doing a weight session... have you seen the ones who do??? They can actually move! The ones that don't become muscle bound and 1/2 of them can hardly even walk properly... a tool in the arsenal, open to abuse of course, but could be a very handy tool!

now that is a good article thanks Lumiere, a lot to read in it, will be heading back to do more than skim read it

Another big part of the problem is the old "monkey see monkey do".
Plebs like me see Anky doing rolkur, Anky scores 10s, Anky wins again, therefore if I want to win I need to do rolkur too...

And there's the danger, even if in the hands of "trained professionals" who know what they're doing it *might* be ok, how do you stop every idiot like me trying to do the same thing and completely munting their pony?

Do they have a responsibility to be EVEN MORE ethical and correct in their training, since they are held up as the examples for us all to aspire to?

yes BUT.... you have to take responsibility for yourself somewhere along the line, or I would takes whips off you, spurs off you, double bridles away from you, side reins etc etc etc, because ALL can be used to munt a pony up... unfortunately (particularly overseas) they play the blame game too readily and never want to (or feel they have to) take responsibility for their own actions. We unfortunately are heading in the same direction hence I like being able to make "informed decisions" and that article link put up by Cathy is the first thing I've seen that is encouraging that.

Factual, non emotive, well presented, presents each thing and show the consequences etc etc, none of this "I pity your horse because you put up a "pro rollkur" clip on you-tube" rubbish LMAO.

Role model status.... if you as a kid held up superman as a personal hero, did you think you could fly? Did you not see even superman had a weakness?

Isabel for drugs, Anky for rollkur, are they not all just human trying to make it as far as they can? Did they ASK to be examples, or role models or heros??? I don't think so, I think we have to choose our heros carefully, and sometimes we make bad choices, why point the finger at the hero and blame them? Look at the choice we made of following them and learn to be more discerning perhaps

You would HOPE someone at top end level cares how they are portrayed, but you can't force them too

So again to me, it all comes down to knowing what sort of a sheep you are, you gonna be part of the pack and just follow along blindly wherever you are herded? or are you gonna be a Shrek and make a story of your own!

hehehe

(not all questions for you Anita, you know what I mean )

I think that if you do not have the ability to train a horse without causing it pain then GET OFF and take up another hobby. Whether or not the horses tongue was trapped between the bits or not, the animal looked to be in total discomfort. How does riding it in an outline that is not acceptable in the ring make it acceptable outside the ring????
Just to add that people love to talk about Anky like she is some godess. When last did you see her horse relaxed ??????
Sorry but I cannot accept this practice.
Anyway, hello to everyone. This is my first posting on the new board. (maybe my last :-) )

Ok - I don't want to open a can of worms, but I got out on my darling horse last night and had a play with the rollkur/ forward/deep and round discussion.

For those that don't know as must about the topic, Rollkur is the dutch brain child, and FDR is the Germans. The Germans have been doing FDR for decades,if not longer. It is very similar to what we term long and low. Two pics, I couldn't get Genie right into deep Rollkur without swinging on the curb, so I didn't. This was taken just at the walk last night...

Ignore the tongue in his photo, he will always do it, and it means nothing to do with physical discomfort. It is his sucking thumb/I'm thinking/I'm trying face.
[img:left]http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2169790880103742406OOrEjV[/img]

[img:left]http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2970340260103742406kqslqt[/img]

And if someone tells me I'm being cruel to my horse by doing this for 2 circles, I swear to god I'll throw things!!

For the record, I don't like Rollkur, and would never train my horses in it, but I regularly stretch my horse, FDR (or my interpretation of it)

I know you weren't getting at me but unfortunately there's only 1 shrek and about 70 million ordinary sheep... LOL

Unfortunately dressage is results driven (and in Europe a lot of livelihoods depend on it too). People want to win, and most people want the short cut to win. Why take 3 yrs to train your youngster classically when you can use gadget A or B and start winning in 6 months...?

You and I will have to be the trail blazers with Mac & Molly. Now we just need judges who appreciate the road we are taking...

Hiya Ali!!!!

trying Kerry's photos for her (webshots is funny Kerry you have to choose a size and get a specific code for it)





(use the "link to this picture" box and hit the 500 or bigger size then copy the code)

OMG!!! HE LOOKS SO UNCOMFORTABLE!!! HOW COULD YOU DO THAT TO HIM???!!!!!!

PMSL, looks like he's enjoying the different view to be honest

Awwww come on KA - you should be able to tell us what they are thinking...! Is Genie saying "OMG I am being tortured" or something else...?

well I've been tempted to ask a few but who's gonna believe me if they say it's not a problem LOL

Kerry, you want me to ask him?

LOL KA - you can ask him. He'll just tell you everything is hard work. Old fart will do anything to get out of work!

This one is also an interesting page off the same site
http://www.sustainabledressage.com/collection/false_collection.php#eye

interesting site Lumiere, have heard it mentioned before but it's the first time I've ventured there, she(?) certainly researches things quite thoroughly... thank you

Just watched someone after my lesson and having been looking at all these diagrams of heads and necks it was interesting to see the horse come UP to the correct position only to evade that again by popping back down an inch and lowering the poll and then of course had the 3rd vert. as the highest point. To me I always thought that was the simplest way of showing an evasion, never thought everyone goes "ROLLKUR!" when they see it LOL

My wee nutter does it to evade at a canter, I am getting him out of the habbit, but can be very hard to do, and he is still moving his back end properly as well ... Have no idea where the habbit came from either....=0(

Was just reading in the Horse and Hound that this rider and clip was the first thing discussed at the global dressage forum and that he is now under investigation.

I'm guessing you mean Patrik and the blue tongue incident... and yes so he should be! Particularly if what the clip says is right and he went on riding in that manner for the next 90 minutes!

I'm sure most that train in the rollkur system would say the same thing!

which begs the question if you consider it to be an evasion why would you deliberately train the horse to evade... thats just weird

well I consider it when UNASKED for to be an evasion on the horses part... they consider it to be a body position to work further muscles untouched by other work (is that it in a simplistic form?) so for them to ask it has a reason, but only when wanted right?

Like Mac wanting to charge off at the walk so we make him slow right down beyond what is normal... if THEY want to do something we do the opposite... I can see their point of using it, whether or not I agree with it...

I don't want Mac to walk around with TOO much flexion to the left, but now in our training it's necessary to loosen that side up, but I wouldn't ride in the arena like that would I...

There is a good book by Dr. Gerd Heuschmann "Tug of war, classical versus Modern Dressage". He states all the fact, everybody can build his/her own opinion after reading the physical happenings, practicing rollkur. this book takes all the guess work out of it. He wrote a second book but I don't remember the title just off the top of my head.

so on a whole, he says it has a place in training???

I suggest you get that book and read it. Don't ask for my interpretation, get his opinion.

aaaaah but you see, I won't get his book, and hate reading books like that, so I like to be lazy and get other people to tell me what was said LOL

to me, if they cannot do it naturally, you shouldnt force them with rein and or other equipment to make them do it. i dont even lunge my horses..... now that is another debate tho.

Here is a link from discussions in Canada re your topic: Have fun reading!

http://barnmice.ning.com/forum/topics/rollkur-or-hyperflexion?page=4&commentId=1773158%3AComment%3A174616&x=1#1773158Comment174616

No KA, Dr. Gerd Heuschmann is violently opposed to Rollkur. Doesn't matter what he writes in his book, his own personal thoughts are VERY well known.

cheers Kerry... VERY well known doesn't mean I have a clue PMSL.