aaaw sorry chick, they are just one sided propaganda which is a pet hate of mine, showing only one side to an argument...

I don't see any reason to train that way, but I don't see why people are SO anti it... seems to me people have taken a "hate the way THAT person rides THAT horse" and turned it into a blanket hate of rollkur, many of the reasons I'm seeing on you-tube just aren't really valid.

Anky talks about it as a flexion tool, to be used to work muscles that aren't worked in other positions, she never says it is a way to work a horse full stop or that "rollkur" is the way you RIDE, just that as part of the variation she uses on her horses, rollkur is in there, and that seems valid to me. Picture in a gym doing a bicep workout... is it working the legs? No, but we know that, so we work the legs later right? Rollkur she is using for a specific purpose, she works on the rest of the framework using other tools.

As a training method being used, it is being used on some very nice horses who work very correctly from behind within the dressage arena, so something must be being done right by quite a few people surely?

But those muscles that they are working are not the ones which are used for correct dressage... If I ride my horse round in a stargazing position to work the muscles under his neck... what is the point??? It aint correct and it isnt good for the horse... same for rollkur. Just because it has a range of motion does not mean we want to train it.
One of the other problems with Rollkur is that it restricts breathing... but then so does sticking a bit in your horses gob

If they wanted to remove rollkur as a training aid the dressage judges need to come down hard on horses who are behind the bit or have "broken" necks in a test, and that would be the majority of the top and superstar level horses... but that isnt going to happen when they can give Totilas a 90% score while it can't extend and is consistently broken thru axis/3rd Vertbrae.

I quite like this site for explainations
http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/behind_the_vertical.php

it would also rule out the majority of low level horses who are not correctly on the bit, but you can't claim they train rollkur. It made me laugh to see one persons commment on a youtube clip, "being behind the vertical is not natural, being on the bit with the poll as the highest point IS natural" excuse me???? really, lets be honest, just how many horses in a natural state prace around "on the bit"????

Dressage is NOT natural for a horse no matter how much we would like to convince ourselves and others and if we are asking something to do something that it would hardly ever do without our interference then we need to make sure it is an athlete who can cope with what we're asking... surely that means we would ensure EVERY muscle is at it's 'peak' that EVERY part of the horse is flexible, not just the ones we will use in a 'test'???

to me the reasons (so far) given as to WHY they use it seem completely valid to me, to me it's like a weight lifter actually taking the time to stretch after doing a weight session... have you seen the ones who do??? They can actually move! The ones that don't become muscle bound and 1/2 of them can hardly even walk properly... a tool in the arsenal, open to abuse of course, but could be a very handy tool!

now that is a good article thanks Lumiere, a lot to read in it, will be heading back to do more than skim read it

Another big part of the problem is the old "monkey see monkey do".
Plebs like me see Anky doing rolkur, Anky scores 10s, Anky wins again, therefore if I want to win I need to do rolkur too...

And there's the danger, even if in the hands of "trained professionals" who know what they're doing it *might* be ok, how do you stop every idiot like me trying to do the same thing and completely munting their pony?

Do they have a responsibility to be EVEN MORE ethical and correct in their training, since they are held up as the examples for us all to aspire to?

yes BUT.... you have to take responsibility for yourself somewhere along the line, or I would takes whips off you, spurs off you, double bridles away from you, side reins etc etc etc, because ALL can be used to munt a pony up... unfortunately (particularly overseas) they play the blame game too readily and never want to (or feel they have to) take responsibility for their own actions. We unfortunately are heading in the same direction hence I like being able to make "informed decisions" and that article link put up by Cathy is the first thing I've seen that is encouraging that.

Factual, non emotive, well presented, presents each thing and show the consequences etc etc, none of this "I pity your horse because you put up a "pro rollkur" clip on you-tube" rubbish LMAO.

Role model status.... if you as a kid held up superman as a personal hero, did you think you could fly? Did you not see even superman had a weakness?

Isabel for drugs, Anky for rollkur, are they not all just human trying to make it as far as they can? Did they ASK to be examples, or role models or heros??? I don't think so, I think we have to choose our heros carefully, and sometimes we make bad choices, why point the finger at the hero and blame them? Look at the choice we made of following them and learn to be more discerning perhaps

You would HOPE someone at top end level cares how they are portrayed, but you can't force them too

So again to me, it all comes down to knowing what sort of a sheep you are, you gonna be part of the pack and just follow along blindly wherever you are herded? or are you gonna be a Shrek and make a story of your own!

hehehe

(not all questions for you Anita, you know what I mean )

I think that if you do not have the ability to train a horse without causing it pain then GET OFF and take up another hobby. Whether or not the horses tongue was trapped between the bits or not, the animal looked to be in total discomfort. How does riding it in an outline that is not acceptable in the ring make it acceptable outside the ring????
Just to add that people love to talk about Anky like she is some godess. When last did you see her horse relaxed ??????
Sorry but I cannot accept this practice.
Anyway, hello to everyone. This is my first posting on the new board. (maybe my last :-) )

Ok - I don't want to open a can of worms, but I got out on my darling horse last night and had a play with the rollkur/ forward/deep and round discussion.

For those that don't know as must about the topic, Rollkur is the dutch brain child, and FDR is the Germans. The Germans have been doing FDR for decades,if not longer. It is very similar to what we term long and low. Two pics, I couldn't get Genie right into deep Rollkur without swinging on the curb, so I didn't. This was taken just at the walk last night...

Ignore the tongue in his photo, he will always do it, and it means nothing to do with physical discomfort. It is his sucking thumb/I'm thinking/I'm trying face.
[img:left]http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2169790880103742406OOrEjV[/img]

[img:left]http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2970340260103742406kqslqt[/img]

And if someone tells me I'm being cruel to my horse by doing this for 2 circles, I swear to god I'll throw things!!

For the record, I don't like Rollkur, and would never train my horses in it, but I regularly stretch my horse, FDR (or my interpretation of it)

I know you weren't getting at me but unfortunately there's only 1 shrek and about 70 million ordinary sheep... LOL

Unfortunately dressage is results driven (and in Europe a lot of livelihoods depend on it too). People want to win, and most people want the short cut to win. Why take 3 yrs to train your youngster classically when you can use gadget A or B and start winning in 6 months...?

You and I will have to be the trail blazers with Mac & Molly. Now we just need judges who appreciate the road we are taking...

Hiya Ali!!!!

trying Kerry's photos for her (webshots is funny Kerry you have to choose a size and get a specific code for it)





(use the "link to this picture" box and hit the 500 or bigger size then copy the code)