well I must confess while on facebook to being roped into a discussion about rollkur which I've never even looked into so only know that within American circles in particular it's a highly charged emotive topic....

Really not sure why!

Have seen some hideous you-tube clips of horses being abused with training gadgets, and yet other riders use the gadgets as they should be used and all is good, a valuable training aid in the right hands....

So WHY is rollkur so evil??? Hyperflexion is even used in the gyms by people but if done RIGHT it is a valuable tool for catching those muscles missed by other exercises...

Have seen the you-tube clip of Patrik whatshisface and the blue tongue on his horse (likely caused by the tongue getting caught between the 2 bits NOT by the rollkur itself) and agree, the rollkur caught in that video clip is NOT being used in a productive way (90 mins of anything non stop is not beneficial) and have seen some clips of Anky using it much less graphically for for short bursts, which would look to be that it is being used as a variation to get the horse to respond to something or in a particular way and then released when that is obtained...

Like I said, first time today I've actually looked at it, let alone into it, so feel free to educate me...

(emotive browbeating is not and never will be educating )

OMG dont get me started on the blue tongue video!!!

I dont know enough on how there anatomy works to be honest but it sure as heck doesnt look comfy - I wouldnt want to run around with my chin on my chest - its not natural - they dont run around like that in the wild (Spose that bring up the debate that they dont run round with people on their back either)

Hmm not a strong arguement...

be interesting to hear what others say on this

doesn't look comfy but they are incredibly flexible, look at where they can reach to scratch and play LOL.

Whether that flexibility should be "exploited" to 90 mins of full on work is not really the issue unless ALL rollkur users ride like Mr Patrik....

But I noticed while watching some things on you-tube some of the very highly emotive comments on riders using it, and "these poor horses have no dignity" and blah blah blah, and am wondering how much of the anti rollkur sentiment is actually valid and how much is a bandwagon people have jumped on without actually knowing all the facts about it but rather they may have simply seen one bad example of it being used (like Mr blue tongue himself LOL)

Yeah I reckon the same - re the bandwagon thing - the blue tongue annoyed me - not for the rollkur but more because they didnt get off the horse and check it out OMG

he stayed on the horse and sorted it tho... I'm sure it wasn't just a poke back in or it would have come out again, so he must have sorted it adequately

(certainly not a pretty look seeing that flopping towards you zoomed in LOL)

From what I have read - biomechanically it puts the ligaments in the upper part of the neck under extreme pressure which can result in tearing of the fibres and inflammation.
Overbending also obviously affects the horses field of vision, so that it virtually can only see where its feet are going, it completely loses its binocular vision - which is pretty freaky for a prey animal!

And it is also contrary to classical dressage, where the poll should be the highest point of the curve in the neck. Which is why a lot of horses are overbent and said to be "broken" at the third vertabrae.

And forgot to say, overbending also affects the horse in other ways. Its to do with how all the muscles and ligaments are attached and how the interact. When a horse is overbent the muscles either side of the neck are contracted which blocks the movement of the shoulders, which restricts lateral flexion.
It also means the ilio-spinal muscles are not being used (the ones that run along the top of the spine), which means it affects the horses stride. It no longer uses its back effectively and the motor at the back doesn't get engaged.

yes BUT, they do some TRAINING like this but of course also work in "competition" frame. Anky talks about her use of it here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svOBsSdjUvU

I know she will always make it sound good, but it made a fair bit of sense too... can't say her boys look overbent in their tests

now this one for example.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UwqyMCr_7c&NR=1&feature=fvwp gives you how to recognise if a horse is trained in "rollkur" and states very common 'mistakes' seen in many many horses doing piaffe and passage, and states "excess foaming" is one way to tell... WTF?! I can give you at least 4 horses that would fit any of those things (and some ALL of those) and I KNOW they don't train rollkur!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8D7q4UWNIU&NR=1 shows a heap of WESTERN riders and claims they are training "rollkur" it also shows a fair few horses that simply look to be slightly behind the vertical...

I always say stats can be made to say anything, and you simply can't watch some of the crap they have up about it and make an informed decision about it.

no fair! I am on dial up and can't watch any of those clips. You'll have to talk me thru them... lol

I say make your own mind up To me the big issue is that it is all about the front end (without going into the biomechanical arguments), and seems to be just cranking the front end in!

You are suppose to be riding the back end - get the horse using his haunches, flexing his back legs which consequently raises the wither, lightens the forehand and puts the neck in the right position. Simple. Just wish I could do it